Pacifism and Interpreting the Sermon on the Mount

2008 July 28

Greg is a friend of a few people on this blog, and he contacted me the other day asking me if I would post his reply to the discussion we have been having on the Sermon on the Mount. It’s reproduced in full below. I will leave a few comments in the comment box after posting this.

In read through all the discussions on Pacifism (at least all that I could find on the blog) I felt obliged to comment on some of the interpretive issues that arose, particularly ones relative to the Sermon on the Mount. I can’t really address all the things that have been said about it from all the discussions, so forgive me if I’ve missed important details. I also found some of the distinctions that were made somewhat obscure and so if I’ve misunderstood anyone’s position it may be because I didn’t fully understand some of the points that were made. Nevertheless, I thought I would try to contribute to the discussion, especially because the Sermon on the Mount has been a fascination of mine for some time.

Regarding the issue of the audience and setting of the sermon. The audience is primarily the “disciples” but also the “crowd” that assembled. So we should read his teaching in that context and regard it as an address to Jewish followers and not specifically directed to the leaders, teachers, or officials, as he does at other times. And so I think it is pretty clear that it is addressed to a crowd of individuals and not a nation as a whole or to national leaders. It is true that he sits on the mountain and that this may intentionally parallel Moses on Sinai. However, this parallel need not be interpreted as Jesus giving a new Law to a new people. In fact, we all know that this is explicitly contradicted by his statement that he came to fulfill the Law and would by no means abolish it. So the new law idea is not an option. Alternatively, we could easily view the Sinai parallel as an additional hint toward Jesus’ affirmative exposition of the Torah. In others words, as his sitting and teaching on the mountain echoes Moses on Sinai, so his teachings echo Sinai.

Now I don’t really understand why Christians tend to struggle so much with this issue of the unity of the OT/NT. Clearly if Jesus had contradicted the Scriptures in any of his teachings, then he was not the Messiah. Even Jacob Neusner recognizes this and rejects his messiahship on that basis. When it comes to him speaking about “fulfilling” the Scriptures it is meant both in the sense of living it out and in the sense of correctly interpreting it. In other words, not only is Jesus saying that he will abide by the Law, but he also teaches (i.e. interprets) the Law for the people so that they could also fulfill the Law. And it’s the latter that matters the most here.

Hence, he goes on to his “You have heard it said…But I say to you…” sayings. None of these sayings that he addresses are teachings from “the Torah and the Prophets.” It’s true that the commandment about adultery appears word for word in v.27, and so does the one for murder in v.21 (yet in an expanded version), and the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” in v.38 (yet is a fragmentary form of the command from the Torah), but the other three sayings do not appear in the Torah. They resemble its teachings but Jesus’ comments on each of them illustrate that none of the 6 sayings are taught in the Torah or the Prophets.

By this I mean that we should not interpret the quoted command as something that is understandable apart from Jesus’ remarks in response to them. To illustrate this let us consider the example of the divorce command in v.31: “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’” A proper understanding of this rejected teaching cannot be understood if isolated from Jesus’ response because the most plausible interpretation would regard it as simply the requirement for men whenever they get divorced that they must give their wife a divorce certificate. But if the statement is taken with Jesus’ response, then we could interpret it as a teaching that has the giving of the certificate as its only requirement for divorce. This Jesus rejects and recalls the teaching in Deuteronomy 24 that the certificate is only written after the husband has found an “indecency” with his wife. And so the only true grounds is sexual immorality and not the certificate.

Moreover, Jesus is using a Rabbinic rhetorical formula. Rabbis would quote another rabbi’s interpretation of Scripture and reject it by contrasting it with their own interpretation. In doing so they would commonly summarize the interpretation in a very abbreviated form like Jesus does here with the “You have heard it said… But I say to you…” formula. Rabbinics scholar David Daube dedicated a chapter to exploring this specific issue of Rabbinic rhetoric used by Jesus in this passage in his book, ”The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism.” And so even though some of the sayings have an identical form to sayings in the Torah it does not mean that Jesus is rejecting or changing the meaning of a commandment in the Torah. Many people try to reject a disunity in OT/NT teaching by saying that Jesus intensified the commandments. But this is also not acceptable. Neusner also puts forward the view that Jesus is “fencing” the Torah like the Pharisees did. Really I think the only proper way to understand it is to view it as a proper interpretation of Torah, which is put forward in contrast to teachings by Pharisees, by the scribes, or by common ideas prevalent in the their culture.
Now to specifically address the relevant passages, we should first observe that nowhere in either paragraph (vv.38-42 or 43-48) is there any mention of “killing” or violence. Regarding the first paragraph (vv.38-42), the citation in v.38 of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is not a reference to the commandment in the Torah. Andrew is correct to view this commandment in the Torah (which this verse does not refer to) as directed to the representatives, or judges, since it is in the context of punishing criminals. However, Jesus is referring to an aberration of the commandment not the commandment itself. It would be helpful, as you said, if we had some extant source that explicitly teaches this, but it isn’t necessary. Some debate over texts in the DSS but recourse to that is not necessary. Moreover, even without recourse to rhetorical formulations being employed here, I think it’s apparent that Jesus is not referring to the commandment given to the judges and officials in the Torah. This is because of what he says in the next 4 verses. All of which make sense for regular people in day to day situations and none of which are directed to policy-making or judicial decision-making for someone in an official position.

Verse 39 teaches that one is not to oppose wicked or malicious people. And that if you are insulted, exemplified by a slap on the right cheek, the reaction should not be to jump to restore one’s dignity through retaliation.

Verse 40 is about someone going to court in order to obtain a person’s undergarment. In Jewish law you could sue for the undergarment but not the outer garment. Hence, it says to even let him have your outer garment too. The point is to counter the attitude that people so often have about asserting and defending their legal rights.

Verse 41 is about a legal right government officials had to commandeer individuals to transport baggage for a certain distance. Here there is an attitude countered, namely, a person’s resentment toward duties imposed on them by governing authorities, especially things viewed as unreasonable or burdensome.

Verse 42 is the odd verse out here, especially for pacifists, because it does not seem to relate at all to the “eye for an eye” citation if Jesus were quoting the commandment from the Torah. But since he’s citing an aberrant interpretation that, as we have seen from the contrasts in the last 3 verses, teaches a self-centered approach to things, it is understandable why this verse appears here. It’s because it is relevant to attitudes individuals have towards others but more importantly about themselves. Here we see countered an attitude that is an unwillingness to share possessions. I’m not sure how this verse could be consistently viewed with a Pacifist hermeneutic. Would it result in a communist political system or a does it advocate an ascetic lifestyle? I don’t mean to belittle here, but only to note that a hermeneutical consistency should lead in a direction like that because to have interpreted the ‘slap on the right cheek’ or the ‘non-opposition to wicked people’ as a command for non-violence demands the same literalist hermeneutic in this verse as well.

The point is that so far it is abundantly clear that this is not about policy-making or whether judges should not render certain decisions that include violent punishments. That can only result far an over-literal reading of this passage and one that does not take into consideration all of its formal characteristics. In fact, in some ways I’m not even sure the pacifist could even claim a literal interpretation here because there is no mention of violence or killing at all, so I’m not sure where it would even come from except a misunderstanding of the ‘eye for an eye’ citation, and an unawareness that the slap on the right cheek is symbolic of personal insults, and then misunderstanding the slap as representative of violence, and then finally combined with an extreme overgeneralization of Jesus’ teaching.

Moreover, it should be said that the phrase lex talionis is not a proper way to understand the principle of an “eye for an eye” because the Latin phrase expresses a notion that is essentially retaliatory, which the Torah repudiates. This is important because it reveals a long held historical misinterpretation. Really it is the “measure for measure” principle, which implies nothing retaliatory. This principle is upheld constantly throughout the NT and even a number of times by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. It is even explicitly stated in 7:2, “For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.” It also undergirds his teaching about forgiveness, “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (6:14-15). Finally, the most interesting one is the Golden Rule itself, “Whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets” (7:12).

Clearly, Jesus is not rejecting the teaching of measure for measure in the Torah, since it corresponds to the teaching which he believes expresses the very essence of “the Law and the Prophets.” Instead, he is rejecting teaching that supports the actions of individuals who are vengeful, excessively defensive, selfish, and self-justifying in their attitudes.

Now the second passage (vv.43-48), in many respects echoes some of the same ideas expressed in the first passage, but it also expands on it in unique ways. The two paragraphs are even more closely related in Luke 6:27-36. Since we know that the citation is not from the Torah, even if it had more closely corresponded to it, we already know that it’s not implying that the Torah taught that people are to hate their enemies. What’s more, since Jesus is here putting forward a proper interpretation of Scripture he’s making the case that the OT teaches that people are to love their enemies. Andrew seemed to think that the OT doesn’t teach this. It doesn’t explicitly, but I think it does implicitly and by example. Certainly Joseph is an example with his forgiveness of his brothers and David should also be considered in relation to Saul.

But here Jesus points to God the Father as the example, “so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (5:45). And he completes the paragraph saying, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (v.48). I don’t see how this has political ramifications in the way that pacifists do. The kind of love that is used here as the example is providential care not judicial administration nor even redemptive love. This is clearly not meant to be a guide for judges or government officials or else justice would have to mean no punishment for all and, therefore, no justice at all. The point here is that God loves all of his creation, whether they are good or wicked. But it does not mean he will withhold violent punishment from the guilty. In fact, we all know that the condemned will be punished violently. And so neither should the authorities he has appointed to administer appropriately measured punishment on criminals withhold it from them.

Verse 46 teaches that we are to love people who do not love us back. This is in line with how God also acts toward the wicked. This and the example of the tax collectors even recalls the same selfish attitudes that Jesus just repudiated in the previous passage. Yet now he has developed the thought by moving away from attitudes that seek a recompense for personal injury and assert personal rights to a matured or “perfected” approach that even cares for people from whom we may gain nothing in return, and even may be accosted by them for it. And so we are to be “perfect” or “complete” in the same way God is.

I know that my post is really long, but I thought I should try to be more thorough so I didn’t miss too much. I didn’t want to get into the Romans and Peter passages, but in some respects I don’t think they matter if this passage is understood properly because I don’t see any reason to try to read them in a pacifistic manner unless it stems from misunderstanding of Matthew 5-7.

Greg Armstrong
Email: gregmarmstrong@gmail.com

5 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 July 28

    A few thoughts (and as with your comments, I’m not going to address everything you’ve said):

    1) NT Wright has pointed out that the ending of the sermon, discussing the “house”, would have been heard as an allusion to the destruction of the temple, a judgment on the nation of Israel. Further, the command to be the light to the world was given to the nation of Israel. So in this sense that the nation is addressed is, I think, indisputable.

    2) Wright also points out that, in the command on “eye for an eye”, “‘Do not resist evil’ (5.39) is not to be taken simply to refer to personal hostilities or village-level animosity. The word ‘resist’ is antistenai, almost a technical term for revolutionary resistance of a specifically military variety. (footnote: cf. Wink 1992b [1988], 114f., with notes; Jos. Uses the word with the sense of ‘violent struggle’ 15 times out of 17 uses.) Taken in this sense, the command draws out the implication of a good deal of the sermon so far. The way forward for Israel is not the way of violent resistance, but the different, oblique way of creative non-violent resistance. A blow on the right cheek is given with the back of the hand, implying insult as well as injury; to offer the left is not mere passivity, but affirmation of one’s own equality with the aggressor. To be sure, these guidelines would apply to the local village disputes as much as anywhere else. But the overall thrust of both text and context is much wider: Jesus’ people were not to become part of the resistance movement,” (Jesus and the Victory of God, 291). So I also think that the political nature of the Sermon is on fairly solid ground. This would further call into question your assertion that this was only directed at individuals in day-to-day contexts.

    3) As for the fulfillment issue, I have found this essay to be quite stimulating: http://www.biblicalstudiescenter.org/interpretation/fulfillment.htm . Related to the issue of Jesus not being the Messiah because he changed the Law, I have found this article to be very helpful: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/finaltorah.html . If Jeremiah can prophesy there will be a day when the Ark is gone, and the Ark is at the center of the entire system of the Torah, then Jesus is not really going against the “eternal” law anymore than Jeremiah was; perhaps the consistent position against Jesus would be the Sadducees: only the Torah is scripture.

    4) With regards to how the section on non-resistance could lead towards pacifism, I have already posted some comments from Richard Hays which might lead toward that interpretation. http://civitatedei.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/more-historical-context-for-loving-enemies/

    5) As for the lex talionis: indeed, the law is about the “measure for measure” principle, but this principle is precisely a principle about how to administer retribution, which is the same as retaliating. So I think you’re putting forth a distinction without difference in this case.

  2. 2008 July 30
    Greg Armstrong permalink

    Andrew,

    I like a lot of your thoughts–some of which I have not encountered before on these issues. Here are mine in response:

    1) Regarding Wright’s thought about the “house” as an allusion to the destruction of the Temple, I have difficulty seeing how Matthew would have intended that since his gospel was written before the destruction of the Temple. I guess it could be, but it doesn’t seem to be a very strong support for viewing the sermon in the particular way you’re proposing. It’s the same kind of argument as with the beginning of the sermon with the possible allusion to Sinai, both of which I would count as insufficiently clear to support any particular view (on the issues we’re talking about) of the intended audience.

    Regarding the “light” issue for Israel, I see your point; however, I still don’t think it’s sufficient to indicate the audience for us. For me to illustrate this, let’s consider the “eye for an eye” command. As you also indicated, this command in the Torah was not so much given to individuals but was for judges and those with official roles that would administer the punishments; and therefore, not for every individual Israelite per se. And yet I think we would both agree that this command was still given to the nation of Israel. Therefore, we can see that a command given to the nation is not necessarily something directed to every individual in the same way. The same could be said of the command about adultery for not everyone was married. When we consider Israel’s purpose to be a “light” to the Gentiles, this is something that should be borne by everyone belonging to the nation. It’s not something specifically for any official role. So this would include judges and kings, but is not something exclusive or specifically directed to them. It’s just something general about the nation for everyone. Much the same as “love God” and “love your neighbour.” Hence, I agree that it’s about the nation as a whole but I don’t see that this helps your position.

    2) I’m not sure why you think my view is narrower than your own. To think that the sermon is specifically about the issue of military revolution is much more narrow that the view that he is teaching general principles for people that are quite broadly applicable. That being said, I don’t see how you could consistently understand the first paragraph about the “eye for an eye” reference if you interpret it in this literal sense of military revolution. I don’t know how Wright interprets this passage as a whole, but I suspect that he wouldn’t interpret it as you are here even if he does regard it as a technical military term. This is because from what I recall I think you said that he was not a pacifist.

    Either way, let us grant that this is a technical military term. Clearly it is not used here in the same literal sense as you suppose. This is because not all of the examples (i.e. slap, mile, lawsuit, begging, borrowing) given by Jesus fit with the literal understanding, as I had mentioned in my post. The best example I think is verse 42, but the verse about the lawsuit also doesn’t fit either. Although I could see how you might try to show that the example of walking the mile is consistent, and I will grant that it would be consistent if he were speaking literally about a military revolution; however, I will not grant it more than it being merely consistent. So it is not sufficient to show that he is teaching about this kind of revolution on the basis of this or the other examples. I don’t see the need to view it in that way based on it being a military term because there are a number of other instances in the NT in which the word is used in a non-technical or possibly a figurative sense and just signifying opposition, resistance, or rebellion in a general sense. And we both know that the mere semantic range of the word is not determinative of its meaning. Although I know you think the context would determine it in accordance with a pacifist reading, I haven’t seen that any of your arguments are strong enough to make this sufficiently clear for the interpreter.

    3) I skimmed over the first article and will try give it its due at a later time, but to put it briefly I would regard “fulfillment” in this passage in a dual sense, as I mentioned in my post, both referring to Christ’s work as well as to his interpretation of the Torah which he sets forth here in the sermon for the listeners in order that they might also fulfill the Torah through their obedience. This is not an innovation of mine, but also an observation made by other Rabbinics scholars. This is because the context of the fulfillment is in relation to the “Torah and Prophets,” and its proper “teaching,” and then the six rhetorical formulations that set forth his interpretations of Scripture in contrast to others.

    Regarding your point about the Ark of the Covenant, I don’t agree. The Ark is a much different matter than the Torah. The Ark was a religious symbol that had a central part in the people’s worship. The Torah is more fundamental to the point that traditions developed regarding the Memra and the Torah’s role as the divine instrument in creating the world. In fact, it is his instrument in creation, redemption and revelation. Hence, John aptly applied the traditions to Jesus as the Word of God. Scripture is much more important than the Ark. And I would disagree with most of what is claimed in the article you gave a link to, but I don’t have the time or space to critique it properly.

    I also would note that the Sadducees were not Torah-only proponents if by that you mean the Pentateuch-only in contrast to the whole Tanakh with the Prophets and Writings. Rather they were Written Torah-only proponents in contrast with the Pharisees who also upheld the Oral Torah as binding upon the people. The Sadducees regretted their binding application on the people. This is a common misunderstanding in historical commentary on the Sadducees. The main issue to Jesus and Paul was that they denied the resurrection and much of the miraculous, not that they rejected certain books. Hence, Jesus claims that they don’t “know the Scriptures or the power of God” not that they rejected the Scriptures in this sense.

    4) It’s a good quote by Hays, however, his conclusion that the passage teaches pacifism is not warranted. His other conclusions are good and echo what I wrote in my interpretation of the verses above. The underlying problem for Hays is that he seems to think that the quotation of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is referring to the command in the Torah rather than an aberrant teaching that Jesus is responding to. Of course Jesus is rejecting retaliation. That’s not the issue here. The issue is whether the Torah taught retaliation. At another time you even claimed that the “eye for an eye” command given in the Torah was given to the officials. So then how could Jesus be rejecting the command in the Torah since the command in the Torah is for the officials and here he is clearly addressing non-officials in a manner that is specifically applicable for non-officials? I think it’s pretty overwhelming that he’s not referring to the command in the Torah but a false understanding of it.

    I can agree with you on the point that Jesus teaches non-retaliation here as a general principle for people. But as I said in my post above, you’ve taken the slap in a literal way that it was not intended for and then exaggerated your literal interpretation to be an all-encompassing principle. There is no clear indication that Jesus is talking to officials or about policy-making. And so, even if I were to grant that the passage taught non-violence for people, which I am not granting, I still do not see how this affects the judges.

    Moreover, there is a command specifically in relation to the measure for measure principle for the judges that “they shall not pity.” Does Jesus abolish this commandment as well?

    5) About measure for measure, the Torah explicitly repudiates retaliation. Since this is the case, the measure for measure principle at minimum cannot be considered retaliatory in the same sense objected to in the Torah. Or should we say that the Torah is self-contradictory? It’s true that the punishment is meant to suit the crime in kind as well as in severity. And so if a life is taken so a life will be required, or if property is stolen then repayment and/or service is required. But no money or time of service could ever equal the worth of a life. Only a life is equal to a life and so that is what is required, nothing more nothing less. But this does not mean that the government administers vengeance. Is it the principle of equal measure that is the problem or is it punishment itself? Consider if equal measure were to be removed from the equation, would an unequal punishment (whether lesser or greater) be appropriate for the government to administer? Or is it punishment itself that is retaliatory? If it is punishment, then can the government even have a response to a crime at all? Or would any kind of response be deemed a judgment, and therefore a punishment, and therefore a form of retaliation, and therefore unacceptable?

  3. 2008 July 30

    I’m going to try to make this my last response for a while, since I’m supposed to be writing a paper, and since it’s probably fair for you to have the last word, since I had the first.

    1) & 2) Regarding Wright’s interpretations: I honestly don’t have the time to go through Wright’s extensive arguments; all I can say is after reading his three major volumes on the 1 C context of Jesus, as well as his ministry, death and resurrection, that I was entirely persuaded that one of Jesus’ central messages was political. And yes, you are correct that he is not a pacifist, but this does not prevent him from seeing this regardless.

    I’m sure you’ve been in a situation where you have more evidence than you can remember for a position, and then struggle to reproduce it when challenged. I could do it, but I can’t really devote the time to it right now.

    3) “The Ark is a much different matter than the Torah. The Ark was a religious symbol that had a central part in the people’s worship. The Torah is more fundamental to the point that traditions developed regarding the Memra and the Torah’s role as the divine instrument in creating the world.”

    I guess my point is that if you actually read the Torah, the Ark is far from peripheral. Regardless of what non-biblical traditions developed, within the OT canon the shape of the Torah changed dramatically. Thus it’s not a big deal for Jesus to do the same, in my opinion. (And FWIW, it seems to me that Paul is explicitly contradicting those rabbinic traditions which make the Torah eternal in places like Romans 4:9-12 and Galatians 3:15-4:7: e.g. “And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later [i.e., not eternal] cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect… . What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made…”.)

    Regarding the Sadducees, I’ve heard it from many different places that they rejected the authority of the non-Torah books of the OT, so I’m not sure what evidence you have to overturn that. It’s certainly consistent with their theology and with Jesus’ response to them.

    4) The point of Hays’ was partly that the unifying principle underlying all the cases in the non-resistance part of the Sermon is peace-loving generosity. While you may not think that implies pacifism, it certainly tends to point in that direction. Further, one cannot reduce it to “not seeking legal vindication”, which was the other point of me quoting that passage. Along with the point about antistenai, I think it would be reasonable to infer that this has something to do with Jesus’ politics, even if it doesn’t imply pacifism.

    5) I think you missed my point a bit; all I was saying is that the eye for an eye command is certainly about retaliation, because retaliation is the same as retribution is the same as revenge is the same as judgment is the same as punishment (sorry for the overly long sentence there!). I don’t think retaliation is somehow worse than political judgment; they’re the same thing.

    I should point out that in two of my most recent posts prior to your response, I have started to question whether Jesus was teaching pacifism, or what kind of non-violence he may be teaching. I am open to granting that Jesus was not doing much more than the the law, and yet I, from reading Wright’s work (among others!) am fully persuaded that one of Jesus’ main message was about the kind of politic that Israel should embody in the face of its political enemies. So I’m not sure how to put these things together anymore; I’m in between positions.

  4. 2008 July 30
    Greg Armstrong permalink

    1 & 2) I completely understand about not being in a position to reproduce a strong argument that I’ve come across. I’ve been in that situation many time. I even think that if you pressed me on certain aspects of some of my arguments on these issue I would also claim the same thing, as I would need to look up the arguments in books that I don’t have in my possession right now.

    About Wright and the 1st Century context, I would definitely agree with you and Wright about the historical tensions you’ve brought up. That’s not something I would dispute with you. And I would also agree that Jesus does teach things that are politically applicable. I just wouldn’t go as far with it as with the position you’re wrestling with. I think the main issue I have with pacifism is how it ultimately requires a break and disunity between the OT and NT or Law and Gospel. I don’t see this as acceptable with a consistently orthodox position. Of course, that will require a whole other discussion for us. And maybe we should talk about that at some other time when we’re both free enough to tackle it.

    Just for the sake of bringing up one issue to think about. When covenants are brought up, especially when it comes to the New Covenant and Old Covenant relations, I think a lot of theology is misguided because it is almost always based on misinterpretation of certain key passages, especially the one in Jeremiah 31. And specifically the issue of God “writing it [Torah] on their hearts” (v.33). I believe the exegetical problems stem from an unawareness of certain important issues arising from the broader ANE context. Moreover, the problem is then compounded because a Greek translation of the passage is quoted in Hebrews 8, which I believe in turn only helps the English reader to misunderstand figurative language because it employs words in an ancient context, such as “heart” and “understanding/mind” which carry a different meaning to modern people. On this issue I would recommend looking up John Walton’s book, “Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament,” in which he has an excursus on how to understand this passage in the ANE context.

    3) What do you mean the “shape” of the Torah changed with the OT canon? Are you referring to redaction or something else? I don’t know what you mean by this, so I’m not sure what it is that you’re saying is OK for Jesus to do to the Torah.

    Excuse my illiteracy. What does FWIW mean?

    Regarding your interpretation of the Galatians passage, I will have to just disagree here without explanation because I don’t think a brief and simplified response would do justice here. I will have to leave that for another time. Also, I wouldn’t say that the Ark is at all peripheral. It was certainly crucial for Israel’s worship, but I would not say that the sense of it having an important place is the same kind of sense you’re speaking of. I would make a distinction here, but at this point I’m not sure how exactly to do so.

    On the view I mentioned about the Sadducees, I had mentioned that misunderstanding was widespread in historical commentary on them, so your point that you’ve come across a lot of people who have put forward that view is fine. From what I can recall, the historians that I derived this view from were Jacob Neusner and Louis Finkelstein. And I will grant that the historical view you brought up is consistent with Jesus’ response to the Sadducees, but I still don’t think it’s correct.

    4) As I said, I agree with essentially all of Hays remarks that you quoted, excepting his conclusion that this “peace-loving generosity” principle implies pacifism or even points in that direction. That is, if we’re speaking of pacifism in politics and the courts, and I’m assuming that we are. As I pointed out, a general principle such as this need not apply to specific official responsibilities such as those with judges for it to be considered generally applicable. Nor do the judges need be viewed as an exception to the general principle. The point is that the principle is not meant to be read as literally as you are claiming. And it is only if it is read this way that it could even be possible for a pacifist reading to be legitimate. However, I’ve tried to go to lengths to show that a literal hermeneutic such as that is without justification here, as well as inconsistent, and is in fact ruled out based on the context of Jesus’ illustrations in the paragraph.

    I’m not sure what precisely you mean by the reduction to “not seeking legal vindication.” If you would explain that more I would appreciate that.

    5) When it comes to the sequence from retaliation to punishment, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. I brought it up as a kind of argument ad absurdum to show that your view if I was accurately understanding it would lead to an absurd view of government authority and judicial administration of judgments. For you to agree with my sequence, then you’re only embracing the absurdity I see your position leading to.

    What kind of authority do governments have then? Or maybe the question should be more what authority should they have rather than what they do have? And that question I would still mean in the context of a world contaminated by sin. Can they make judgments about how people live and interact? Can they punish in any sense? If so, what kind of punishments and for what crimes? And what principles of justice are they employing? And do these principles contradict or nullify the principles upheld by God as “just” and “wise” and “good” and “true” in the Torah?

    I respect your “in between” position. I was just surprise that you affirmed the direction I was leading with that series of questions. I think the notion that Jesus was teaching a kind of politic is something definitely worth studying and is very interesting to me. However, I don’t see the kind of direction you’ve mentioned as being sufficiently clear in the passage we’ve been discussing. He obviously is responding to political issues and tensions in his time. That I agree. At this point I just don’t agree with the direction you see in his teaching.

  5. 2008 July 30

    FWIW = for what it’s worth; sorry bout the internet-speak there ;-)

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