Posted by: thebrooks | February 24, 2008

Fast Company to Hell

After what will hopefully soon become a bi-weekly poker game (to which everyone here is invited of course), a heated discussion ensued over the relationship between pastoring and the business world. My position is as follows: I’d sooner see my 16 year old daughter (if I had one) have a relationship with a coked out 35 year old vagrant than see pastors have any relationship with the business world.

In fact, if I had any say about these things (which I don’t), I’d try and prevent pastors from getting ordained who had a monthly subscription to swill like Fast Company magazine.

Why? Pastoring is a discipline like any other. Because of that, we have our own curriculum. We’ve forgotten this. Why else would shepherds read Small Business magazine when they could be reading Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, George Herbert, A Diary of a Country Priest, St. John Chrysostom, Richard Baxter, and especially, Eugene Peterson?

Where in the hell did we get the idea that the church is even remotely like a business anyways?

Some will say that the business world is better suited to adapting to and meeting the needs of modern society, after all that’s just what they do. One has to make profits after all and an unsatisfied customer definitely isn’t a paying customer. People who argue like this forget that the church has its own culture. We have robust Psalm singing, Charles Wesley, the Book of Common Prayer, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Liturgy of the Hours, family prayers, etc. When people convert to Christ, they are also converting to life in Christ’s church, where all these treasures are shared in common.

Of course many modern pastors don’t even know what some of these treasures are. And what do you expect? Some don’t have formal (or even informal) theological training. Why would you when you can get a Master’s degree in marketing? (I’m looking at you Bill Hybels).

Am I being too tough on these wannabee CEO’s? No, I don’t think I am. I’m not speaking in hyperbole when I say I wouldn’t want to see a man ordained who regularly reads Fast Company. The problem has to do with theory vs. practice. Case in point: Gerald McDermott’s Can Evangelicals Learn from World Religions? It’s a great book with a difficult thesis to contradict. McDermott spends 200+ pages proving that all major world religions contain varying degress of important truths. Most importantly, some religions highlight some truths so well that evangelicals should study and learn from them (e.g. Islam and submission). This sounds great in theory, but in practice would be disastrous for a church to adopt. Most people haven’t even mastered basic Christianity. Even those who have are not prepared with the intellectual tools to cut and paste from major world religions in a faithful way.

It’s the same with modern day multi-colored cardigan wearing pastors. They’re not ready for Fast Company. Give them ten years in the church fathers and then we’ll see if they’re ready.

Until then, grow up and stop pretending like you’re a CEO. You’re not a professional and you never will be. That’s why you wear a clerical collar - it’s the collar of a slave.

Oh wait, we don’t wear those anymore.

Responses

You’ve nailed it! Once again.

Great title lol!

You’re presenting a firmer stance here than you did on Friday. You’re practically aligning yourself with the camp that says secular music is inherently evil and that playing cards is worldly (ironic considering the context of when the original conversation was held).

I agree with you, and always have, that it is a matter of focus: seek ye first, there your treasure will be also, hate your mother and father, and all that.

But even considering forbidding ordination because someone does some extra-curricular reading is nothing short of Pharisaical not to mention exceedingly difficult to justify Biblically.

Focus? Do they want to get ahead and advance and posture and position? Well, that’s a heart issue an entirely critical when one seeks to take up the Mantle.

But consider: what makes business reading different than reading fiction or secular philosophy? Fundamentally, nothing. The argument you’ve presented is, “If you have an hour to read Fast Company, you have an hour to read Augustine,” which is no different than, “If you have an hour to watch Lost, read Nietzsche or 1984, you have an hour to read Augustine.”

What makes going for a jog or making a crepe any different? Just grab a bowl of granola and head back to Augustine you irreligious bastard! YOU HAVE NO TIME TO WASTE!

I’m also interested as to why you hold these early saint in such high regard — they are men after all, as prone to wander as you or I (especially Augustine — remember the passage this blog’s tag line was inspired by).

A stronger argument is this: if you have an hour to read Augustine, then you have an hour to read the Scriptures themselves.

Essentially, this is where your argument must take us, is it not? It’s the most Holy, Godly, and surrendered end, the Scriptures being the Direct and Divine Word of God, not some sinner’s take on what Godliness might be.

Also, you indicated in an earlier post that Paul was borrowing from Aristotle at points; we also know that Jesus quoted a secular song.

Surely if Paul had an hour to learn about Aristotelean philosophy, he had an our to read the Prophets, no?

[...] his earlier post called Fast Company to Hell, Keith was rightly upset with pastors who uncritically absorb “secular” business models [...]

Ben,

I’ve think you’ve made this too much about time-use. It’s more about the kind of mindset your reading engenders. Is a congregation a “target market” for you? Are sermons nothing but “content” to be provided to that target market?

1) I’m not focusing on time at all. I used the term “an hour” for the purpose of illustration. As you said, it’s about mindset (read over my comments and you’ll see that really was the thrust), and time spent almost always mirrors priority.

In fact I’m using language we exchanged in the actual conversation, and Keith agreed with the terms (that is, if you can spare an hour for Fast Company, you can spare one for Augustine).

This is an indicator of mindset. Apart from necessary evils like sleeping and working, you spend more time blogging than you to knitting scarves. Why? Because of what is important to you. The correlation between elective time expenditure and priority is a reality, and that’s why my example is relevant.

2) A congregation is not a target market, but yuor comment here assumes that everything a pastor fills his leisure time with needs to be directly related to his vocation.

Why does his reading of Fast Company mean he views the congregation as a target market? Why must the two be related?

This assumption is false.The rest of my first comment stands: according to Keith’s thesis, listening to secular music, playing poker, or catching a movie also reveal a certain mindset which a Shepherd should not be afforded the luxury of entertaining. As well, by His own argument, the reading of extra-Biblical Christian texts also becomes suspect: if you have a heart after God, why would you leave room to read earthly books when you could just read of the Scriptures?

I’m saying the argument, when taken to it’s end, is Pharisaical, un-Biblical, and self-defeating.

I agree 100% with Keith’s heart and motives, I just think if he takes 2 steps back it will actually leave him in a more effective and powerful place regarding Philosophy of Ministry.

Ben,

Don’t be so silly, there was no assumption, it was a rhetorical question. It’s you who have assumed the worst here.

For what it’s worth, the Fast Company reference comes from me. I recall a pastor prefacing his sermon by going on about how Fast Company was his favourite business magazine and about how he had read others but that this was clearly the best one going. There was ample evidence that this man knew his business mags to the extent that it must surely have consumed a great deal of his reading.

This was the example that Keith probably had in mind.

I think that issue here is the definition of the position of pastor. I don’t think Keith is saying that a pastor can’t enjoy a magazine of any variety so long as they’re not pornagraphic. Or even that he doesn’t understand that some pastors have to do this work because there is no other staff or volunteers. The bottom line is that a pastor is concerned with winning souls and caring for their flock, everything else should be peripheral. Keith is upset about the fact that some pastors are being side tracked by this unecessary work and at some churches this extra unecessary work is becoming mandatory. People would go nuts if they found out that surgeons also had to handle payroll, I see no difference here. I think we’d all agree that is crazy.

For Ben, if the bible says it or even implies it; that should be our desire. Like Kie says, there’s nothing wrong with insane amounts of righteousness. But I do agree that this focus on early church writers is unfounded, but Keith may be saying “if you’re going to read extra biblical material, it may as well be these dudes.”

Where is Keith focusing excessively on early church types? Eugene Peterson is still alive for crying out loud.

First of all, Silly rocks. K? :)

Sorry I missed the rhetorical nature of the question (obviously you know I don’t see a congregation as a target market).

But, what did I assume exactly? (I’d submit the nature of this blog and the intensity of its dialectic means that rhetorical questions read as actual questions, especially given the very special nature of our online courtship, SeƱior Gouge)

Now, Jay’s comment captures Keith’s heart exactly, and your (Dan’s) original comment which got Keith thinking in the first place even further hits the point: consumption. To be consumed is to be distracted, even uselessness and impotence.

* * * * *

The “early church” description popped-up thanks to the kind of material that Keith was focusing on, but surely we can all lose the term: what we/me/he meant all along is “solid, wise and worthy Christian writing.”

Are you people serious?
Your irrelevant non-sensical ramblings are so off-base that there isn’t even a real point to counter. You sound more like Pharisees than the Pharisees. You focus on knats while swallowing camels and your facts are as trumped up as the ones against Jesus (Hybels has no Master in Marketing - where did you get that nonsense?).
No relationship with the business world? Did you notice who Jesus hung out with? Not hundred year-old mystics, but tax collectors and fishermen (business people of their time) and used parables from the business world all the time. Get over your “if it doesn’t fit what “I” like or think is legit, then it must be heresy” (i.e. pharisee) bandwagon and do something with your life. Try living a life worthy of the calling you’ve received. Try loving your neighbor as yourself. Try being the kind of person that is drawing Christians and non-Christians alike into your orbit so that you can influence them all towards the Kindgom. Calling people “bastards” and using occassional swear words to make yourself feel cool and relevant while trashing others who you have no real knowledge of is a waste of time and talents. If you have an hour to blog negatively and arrogantly, don’t you have an hour to act like Christ?

Mr. One thousand five hundred sixteen,

You go on about arrogance and yet you imply some pretty nasty things about the authors of this blog without apparently understanding exactly what the original post was about. No one uttered the word “heresy” here until you did. Apparently this post doesn’t fit with what you “like or think is legit.”

Jay,

To focus entirely on the bible to the exclusion of extra-biblical materials is ironically, unbiblical.

Lent is a great time to encourage praying the Liturgy of the Hours.
Including ecumenically
http://www.liturgy.co.nz/ofthehours/resources.html

[...] a Slave Name Keith posted a while ago here on why ministers wore a unique sort of collar - it’s supposed to represent the slavery of the pastor. Elsewhere I’ve read that the word “minister” itself derives from a late-Latin [...]

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